ba men:
The literal meaning of ba men “mithun/mithan/mytton” (Bos frontalis) is said to be “non-cow” (i.e. from ba min). See Aris 1995 [’Jigs-gling’s Discourse]: 67, n. 23. But how sure is it?
See Negi (s.v. ba men), where both gavaya and kapiñjala (MW, s.vv.) have been rendered into Tibetan as ba men. But note that kapiñjala is a bird and not a mithun.
I think we should consider ba men in the sense of “non-cow,” or perhaps even better “not-quite-a-cow” or “quasi-cow.” See the line (cited in Negi): ba lang dang ’dra ba’i phyir ’di ni ba men yin no zhes…. I have, however, not looked at the original context of this statement.
See also Zhwa-sgab-pa, Srid don rgyal rabs (vol. 1, p. 43, n. 48).
See also Zhwa-sgab-pa, Srid don rgyal rabs (vol. 1, p. 43, n. 48).
Dear D,
ReplyDeleteI was imagining the men element to be a reduction of rmen, as in rmen-bu, which means what? Goldstein tells me it's a scrofulous swelling. Thanks G. What's that? I found this:
"A scrofulous swelling refers to chronic enlargement and cheesy degeneration of the lymphatic glands, particularly those of the neck, and marked by a tendency..."
I'm hoping with all my heart that these poor creatures don't suffer from any cheesy degenerations, particularly not on the neck!
Yours,
D
Dear D & D,
ReplyDeleteAccording to the Tibetan-English Dictionary of Tibetan Medicine and Astrology (Drungtso, 2005) rmen-bu would seem to be a term for lymph nodes (sometimes also called "glands") - and correspond to the sanskrit granthi - which in itself may be interesting if we start to think about the etymological dimensions of nodes, nets and knots. The same source gives rmen-bu'i rnam-bzhag as "the endocrine system".
On the other hand, as rmen-ngan is understood to be an archaic expression for ltas-ngan, i.e. “bad omen”, might this actually tell us more about the true sense of the word?
And what about phra-men then? And the ke’u-ri-ma or ga’u-ri (etc.)?
If “men” here, indeed, does represent rmen.
Yours,
T-T
Dear T-T,
ReplyDeleteIt will indeed be interesting to find out the etymology of phra men (or phra men ma), particularly what men here could mean.
Best,
D.
Dear D-D and T-T,
ReplyDeleteIs it possible there's some precedent or 'rule' for reducing ma-yin to men rather than min? If so it would make D's original theory all the more attractive. Ba-men would be like lha-ma-yin. Just as the asuras (lha-ma-yin) are non-gods (a-suras) the bamen would be non-cows. Perhaps cow-men (wait, I'm mixing up my languages again).
You have an odd word tur-men that is supposed to mean single-file.
There's mu-men, that might be a type of horse.
Actually, I see now from my own vocabulary that Leonard v.d.Kuijp has recorded (from a glossary of Khedrupjé) this: •MEN PA = min pa. "is not." Kuijp (1986) 35.
Do we conclude something?
-D
Dear D & D,
ReplyDeleteBa-men, in the Bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo, is explained to be a ri-dwags - while a "mithun" (often) is understood to be a g.yung dwags. Right? I don't know how clear this is. At this point I would like to find out if there could be some kind of meaningful similarity (or difference) between (*)men and nor. Jäschke f.ex. gives "an ornament, piece of finery" for men. Then we have the khra-men and mu-men etc. On the other hand, in Sanskrit we have the expression go-mRga, which is interesting, too.
Yours,
T-T.
Dear T-T,
ReplyDeleteApologies for the late response. As far as I know, ba men has to be hunted down and domesticated. An extremely difficult process! Dogs are supposed to chase them to exhaustion. This is perhaps one of the reasons why a ba men is extremely expensive. And for the rest, I have no comments at the moment.
Best,
Dorji
Dear Dorji,
ReplyDeleteGood to see you back!
Yes, actually I was thinking a bit along these lines.
At least as gayal - gaya (Skt.) the mithun -dwags seems to convey a sense of property and wealth. Similar to nor - more or less?
Looking for some possible precedents or ’rules’ - or at least some likenesses (~ ’dra ba) - my thoughts (~ dran pa) have been wandering this way:
rme ba (rnying) 1) 'dri ba dang, smra ba,...2) bsri ba,...
‘dri ba - drin / (smra ba - ??) / (b)sri ba - rin / rme ba - men,…
Too near-fetched?
Yours unruly,
T-T
Dear T-T,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your thoughts on the ba men etymology. I am still trying to reflect on them.
Best,
D.